reunión en washington 26 de marzo 1976
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<
tht• ntional r c h i v e ~
Secre
o f S t a t e
ss
r
Chairman
Mr. Inge r so l l
p
Mr.
s
co
E
Mr. Robinson
T
Ivlr.
Maw
M
Mr.
Eagleburger
F Mr.
Mulcahy
Acting)
R Mr.
Rogers
E Mr.
Habib
EUR Mr.
Armitage
NE
Mr.
therton
INR Mr.
Saunders
S/P
Mr.
Lord
EB
Mr.
Katz
Acting)
S/PRS
Mr. Funse th
PM
Mr.
Vest
IO
Mr. Lewis
H
Ambassador
McCloskey
L
Mr. Leigh
S/S
Mr. Spr ings t een
s Mr. Barbian
G D S
G D S
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at till 1ationa1 A r c h i v ~ S
2
P R C
E D I N G S
s
S t a f f Meeting
was
convened
a t
8 : 1 2 a . m . , Secre
o f Sta t e
ss inger pres id ing
as i rman.)
MR. INGERSOLL:
Good morning, Henry.
Discuss ion
o f f
the record . )
MR
INGERSOLL:
The
boyco t t
could
have
se r ious
impl i ca t ions . W e l l have a
paper
to you
on
t ha t ,
and
we
c a n t
f ind out any th ing about it - -
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
What
i s th is? The J us t i c e
Department
- -
MR INGERSOLL: Yes.
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: i s
i nve s t i ga t ing the
i ~
o i l companies
fo r
t h e i r
conduct
dur ing the boycot t
the one t ime they
behaved
in a p a t r i o t i c fashion.
MR
INGERSOLL: Well , in may not
be
l imi t ed in
t ha t
per iod , but it s t a r t s t he re .
SECRETARY
KISSINGER:
One
t ime
they
kep t
everybody going by p u t t i n g o i l
i n t o
one b ig pool ,
and
t h a t s
a n t i - t r u s t .
MR LEIGH: Well , they
won t
t e l l us very
much
about it Mr. Secre ta ry . T h a t s why
we
need your
he lp
on
it before the
grand
jury
i s
convened. Now t h i s
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lf
tht :\ational
Archiv •s
i s
not
j u s t
a c l
inves
Once
t h a t ' s done,
we
wouldn t be able to say
anything.
MR.
INGERSOLL: Tha t ' s why we
th ink
we have
to
move
on
it, and they say it s very conf iden
a l . They
j u s t t o ld
us
about it. They won' t t e l l us
anything
about
tne
de ta i l s - - i f t h a t ' s
' consul ta t ion
( l augh te r ) .
I wi l l have it to
you
today.
One o ther po in t
I ' d
l i ke
to
make i s th i s
may be
my
l a s t St a f f
Meet ing,
Henry, and
I ll
be th inking
of
a l l
of you on the s lopes of Aspen
maybe
next week.
(I,aughter.)
1 - lR.
IVIAW:
The
s l ippe ry
s lope.
MR. INGERSOLL: Yes.
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
Bob, we ' re
going to have a
cockta i l pa r ty for you, where, I suppose, most of
these
people are going to e i bu t I need not t e l l
you
how
much
you wi l l
be
missed.
MR. INGERSOLL: Thank you.
I ll miss a l l
of you.
SECRETARY
KISSINGER:
I want to t e l l you
t ha t with digni ty and calm you performed
t h i s job
and
even diplomats wil l not say
t h i s
of me when I
leave . Keep your l aughing with in l imi t s .
(Laughter . )
MR.
EAGLEBURGER:
He s
not
a
diplomat
(poin t ing
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l tilt·
\alional
;\rchin:s
4
to Mr.
Leigh) .
MR
SISCO:
I ha ve n t
anything.
MR ROBINSON:
I j u s t came back from New York,
Associa t ion .
I want to r e por t t h a t they announced
your forthcoming speech
before t h a t
group on the Law
of
the Sea
and
everyone
became very
exc i t ed .
Two
women fa in ted in the f ront row ( l aughte r ) , and it was
very
sha t t e r i ng . My
i n f e r i o r i t y
complex
was
with
me
j u s t before I was to speak.
But I ju s t want
you
to know
t ha t t hey re
very exc i t ed
about your coming up.
SECRETARY
KISSINGER:
Why only
two?
(Laughter . )
MR
INGERSOLL: Tha t s a l l t he re
were.
(Laughter .
MR
ROBINSON:
They re
very
pleased ,
and I
ju s t wanted
to t e l l
you how exc i ted they were about
your forthcoming
speech.
SECRETARY
KISSINGER:
Are
we
get t ing
a
dra f t ?
I f t ha t
boy
dra f t s as well as he
t a lk s ,
it s going to
be
the grea t e s t speech s ince the Get tysburg Address.
MR
EAGLEBURGER:
It
wi l l
be
longer .
(Laughter.
SECRETARY KISSINGER: We can
put in
some of
the de ta i l s , depending on the discuss ions with
Treasury,
but
I had the sense
yes terday t ha t
we were going to ge t
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I 1hl Nation: l Archives
DEC
L SS I
( I
most
of our
proposals .
MR. LORD:
I th ink we
can
ge t
ce r t a
ly enough
with t ha t speech.
SECRE I ARY KISSINGER:
0.
K.
MR.
MULCAHY:
Now
t h i s day
the suspense of the
t a lks in Lusaka t ha t we at tached qu i t e a b i t of
importance
to
broke up without a s ta tement .
SECRETARY KISSINGER: The
t a l k s where?
MR. MULCAHY: This was the
Four
Power t a l k s - -
Presidents
Machel
Khama Nyerere and Kaunda meet ing
in
Lusaka
on where they could go from
here
with
the
~ o d e s i a n
s i tua t ion . They
had
both
Rhodesian
na t iona l i s t fac t ions the re
and Nkomo apparent ly
according to
the
press . No r econc i l i a t i on took place
\
between
Nkomo and Nyerere which was
one of
the
purposes
of the th ing .
Also it broke up without any s o r t of communique
which i s not a good s ign
and - -
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
VJhy
MR.
MULCAHY:
Well
- -
SECRETARY KISSINGER: t
means - -
MR. MULCAHY: ~ J e l l , it means t h a t Nkomo
and Kaunda
who
are
genera l ly
r e l i a b l e
as
f a r
as
the
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6
ne
t
concerned,
r
s
S I ~ i C R E T R Y
KISSINGER: But
it
a l so means
t
the
1
uade
the re
t
be
ne
ia
M L
MULCAHY:
Yes, t h a t s r igh t . I f y o u r e an
s t , t ake
t h a t
view.
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
I f
y o u r e
a r e a l i s t
I
mean,
what e l se
can it
mean? It
means
they
could
MR MULCAHY: Yes, s i r .
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
But
what s more l i ke l y
to
?
MR MULCAHY: Well , I
th ink
if
SECRE rARY KISSINGER: Where i s
the
A s s i s t a n t
Secre ta ry , i nc ide n ta l l y?
MR MULCAHY: He s
on h i s
way back from
Par i s .
He went
to
the re in fo rced NAC
in
Brusse l s ,
and
h e l l
be
back t h i s af te rnoon .
SECRETARY KISSINGER: Go
ahead.
MR
MULCAHY:
But what probably wi l l happen i s
t ha t t h i s now wi l l
i nc rease
the
pressu re on
Smith
t h a t -
SECRETARY KISSINGER: Only
in
your mind. Since
)£CLASSIFIED
Authorit
\t\\\ \
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H.t•produn·tl at thl National Archin•:
he
broke
of f
the
t a lk s ,
why
should
it
i nc rease
the
sure
on him?
MR
MULCAHY: Well because they a l l
now
agree
t ha t the g u e r r i l l a warfare
w i l l
cont inue and be
s tepped up.
t ha t a
SECRETARY
KISSINGER:
ady.
I thought they a l l s a id
MR
MULCAHY; They
have but t h e r e s
r e l a t ive ly little
o f
it. But
I
th ink
now with
the
ra iny season
w e l l
see
a
grea t dea l o f i n f i l t r a t i o n
across
the border .
One
o f
the proposals under cons ide ra t ion was
to pu t
a
lway system
through Botswana
to
South Africa .
The
pr i nc i pa l r a i l l i ne w i l l a lso cause UN sanc t ions .
It s
a
kno t ty problem because the r a i l l i ne i s the
proper ty
of
the
Rhodesian Government. We
th ink t h a t t h i s
was
one of the i s sues under cons ide ra t ion .
SECRETARY KISSINGER: Can I ge t a paper
by
the
middle of next week of how we re going
to
ge t
from
here
to
the re
- - I mean what
AF v i sua l i zes
i s going to
happen
now
and
what we can
do now o ther
than
hand-wringing?
MR MULCAHY:
Yes s i r .
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
And exac t ly
what s t eps
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al Ott
Naliowrl
ArchiH:-s
MR HABIB: One
d i d n t go.
SECRETARY
KISSINGER:
There
may
have
been
two cables ,
but I
d i d n t
see
them.
May I see
them
now?
Mr.
Barbian
hands Secre tary a
document
to peruse . )
MR HABIB: The l a s t
paragraph.
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: O.K.
Go
ahead.
MR HABIB: rhe
othe r th ing i s
t ha t
you
have approval
of the f i r s t s tage
of
the Thai
withdrawal
ac t ions .
SECRETARY
KISSINGER:
Yes, but
I want
to have
a s ign i f i can t cut a l so
in
the mil i t a ry advisers .
MR HABIB: Yes.
The ce i l i ng l 270. We re
down around
200 now.
We re supposed to go
below
t h a t
before the
end
of the
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
I
want the
Thais
to
see
a
withdrawal .
The Thais
d o n t know what our ce i l ing
i s .
Therefore , if
we
ju s t keep it - -
MR
HABIB: No. They
s e t
the ce i l i ng . The
ce i l i ng of 270 i s
a
ce i l i ng which - -
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
Have
we pu l l ed out 70
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l tlw ;\ ational Archlvts
10
or
have
we
s imply
not rep laced
70?
MH HABIB:
Well, the 70 are not
the re .
SECRE rARY KISSINGER: •rhey have never
been
there?
MR
HABIB: No.
They
have been temporar i ly
withdrawn, and t he re
was
some thought o f pu l l i ng it
down lower .
SECRETARY
KISSINGER:
I
would l i ke the Thais
to
see t h a t , a f t e r
the i r
dec i s ion , the re
i s
some r educ t ion
in the pa r t they want
~
to have
s tay
MR
HABIB:
I understand.
SECRETARY KISSINGER: - -
and
we can
keep
the
ce i l i ng
and
pu t
in more
people
l a t e r
on
if
they
ask
for
it
MR HABIB:
Well,
what we want to do i s keep
the
ce i l i ng
so t ha t
l a t e r
on,
if we need to , it would
be i n t e l l i gence
people,
no t
MAG
people ,
and
vary it
with
the
MAG
SECRETARY
KISSINGER:
Tha t s
f ine .
MR HABIB:
Th a t s
what we had in mind.
Also, we
have
to now take very tough dec i s ions
on
such th ings as
pul l ing out the
ammunition
we
have
s to red
in
place .
Tha t s
going to r ea l ly show
the
Thais
what
t h i s
i s
cos t ing
because we ve
got
about
60
mil l ion
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:
he : \::1tional Archin::.
SECRET
do l l a r s
worth
of
ammuni
on
which under
presen t
law
we cannot l eave the re . And we
can
e i the r s e l l it to
them or take it
out .
They re
no t going
to
buy
it
t hey re
going to
want us
to leave it there and give it
to
them - - which
would
no t be poss ib le .
Th a t s going
to
hur t .
So t h e r e s
going
to be a se r i e s
of
ac t ions
which
I
hope very f rankly ,
I d r a t he r
not t ake on
some
o f
them
u n t i l
the e l ec t i on i s out of
the
way
- - u n t i l
the
e l e c t ion i s
out
of the way - - which
i s
e igh t more
days nine more days. I f we ge t the e l ec t i on out
o f
the
way
we
may
have
a
new
government;
we may
no t
have
a
new
government. W e l l see what happens so w e l l t ry to keep
you
informed.
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
I
forgot .
Is the
Vice
Pres iden t
s topping t he re o r
not?
MR
HABIB: No
s i r
- -
because
o f
the
e lec t ion .
The
o ther
th ing i s
t ha t
the
Koreans
have
now
i nd ic t ed 18 people
from
the l a s t
of f i c i a l
s ta tement ,
and
they ve ind ic ted
them
under a l ess
severe
ac t than
they might
have
pu t them
under.
Now whether t h a t s the k
of
reac t ion
taken
in
response
to the
kind
of
pro te s t ,
I
d o n t know.
SE RET
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al tltt : \atiunal
Archive:.<
At
the
same
t h e v e
r e - ind i c t e d
a
r a t he r
w el l -
known
i n t e rna t i ona l
o f f i c i a l ,
who,
under a
law,
would permi t
them
to sentence him to death . This
i s a guy who s
a l ready
sentenced to
l i f e
imprisonment
under a
previous
commitment.
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: Where l
he?
I s he
in pr ison?
MR
HABIB:
He s
in pr i son
under
a l i f e
sentence ,
and t h ey v e j u s t r e - ind i c t e d him
under
another
law which permi ts them to sentence him to
dea th .
SECRETARY
KISSINGER:
They
d o n t
t ake
any
chances, do they?
(Laughter . )
MR HABIB: They d o n t t ake any chances. The
guy
i s very s i c k , bes ides . He w o n t
make
it
for very long.
(Laughter . )
But the
rumble i s
up
on
the
Hil l . They tell me they have ac t ua l l ywr i t t en
l e t t e r s themse lves . They have w r i t t e n l e t t e r s
to
Parker to
see
what
he
can do
about
the s i t u a t i o n .
12
I have to appear before the Humphrey Subcommittee
on
Korea a t 4:00, and
I m
sure t h e y r e going to give
me a very bad t ime.
pos i t ion .
But
I th ink we
can
hold to the
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at the
\ational
Archive:
13
MR. M A ~ v
I
got
a p r e t t y bad t ime
on t
be
the House
In te
onal Relat ions Committee on
Monday, and
you ' re going
to ge t t
today.
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
I 'm
glad
you l e t them
schedule
me so nice ly
before
these Committees.
(Laughter . )
Go
ahead.
MR.
ARMITAGE:
Art
Hartman had
to
go
to
the
doc tor
t h i s
morning.
He ' l l be here the middle of the
morning,
Mr. Secre tary .
We ve
got a couple
of
he lpfu l
developments
{
on
protec t ion of Sovi
personnel
in
Moscow.
There
was a bomb t h rea t
yes te rday .
Pa r t of the
Embassy
was
evacuated , but no bomb was found.
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: But t h a t was al ready
in the papers yesterday , or was t h a t another one?
MR. ARMI'rAGE:
No. That
was
the same.
SECRETARY KISSINGER: There are no s ta tements
to
be
made
on
the Sovie t
Union t h a t
I
do not persona l ly
c lear .
We
cannot
harass the Sovie t s every s ingle bloody
day
with
some
o ther
tough t a l k out
o f t h i s bu i ld ing ,
and
we
mishandled the th ree Missions business .
There ' s
no
need
fo r
us to shoot a t them
the day t happened.
We could have s a id
yes te rday
We are s tudying i t
- -
t ha t
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t the ~ n t i o n l Archivl S
14
we
are asking
for a fu l l
repor t .
MR
FUNSETH: That
guidance tha t
I used
in
going out
to
Moscow i s press guidance two days before .
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: I
d i d n t
approve it
ther . Tha t s
how
the othe r
d isa s te r happened.
That went out as press guidance immediately.
MR
ARMITAGE:
We
now
have
one
in
New
York
Mr. Secre tary . The New York Pol i ce Department d i s -
mantled the bomb s tored out of Amtorg yesterday ,
thereby
SECRETARY
KISSINGER:
Are
we
going to pro te s t to
the
Soviets
and
say they
did
i t ?
MR
ARMITAGE: No
s i r . The search
had been made
ea r l i e r
a f t e r
the
telephone
warning
found nothing.
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: The press guidance to
Moscow
must be c leared
now
here .
There s not to be
another one tha t
I d o n t see .
MR
FUNSETH: All
r igh t ,
s i r .
MR
ARMITAGE:
The
bomb was
ac tua l ly found
by Sovie t personnel , disarmed by the pol ice . And it s
ju s t
poss ib le t ha t if
the pol ice would have
been a
little
more
v ig i l an t
they
could have been caught by th i s t ime
because they
d i d n t leave
anybody
around
a f t e r the
search.
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were
for the
MR LEWIS:
There•s
nother
to
New
York
from
ano
and FBI
t
the
s
the
more
JDL
what
was
z
of
re
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
we re so
can we
a
s t t ement
MR
FUNSETH
Yes
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t h ~
~ n t i o n l Archin; s
16
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: - - and
ca l l i ng on the
New York Pol ice and
o t h e r s to
a s s i s t ?
MR
SISCO:
I ll see what
we
can do with t ha t .
MR
INGERSOLL:
I c a l l e d the
Mayor,
and
the
Mayor sa i d
the Commissioner was
going to
c a l l me back. They were going t o g e t some
Federa l
ind ic tment s .
I
d o n t t h ink they have done
anything
ye t ,
have they?
MR ARMITAGE:
No.Shoot ing
i n to the Riverda le
and
the
bomb around Aerof lo t . But they say they h a v e n t
been ab le to
t u r n
up any l eads
ye t .
MR INGERSOLL:
But
some
of these harassments
t ha t
t ake
place - - the New York
Pol ice
a r r e s t
them and
l e t them go.
MR L E W I
S
: For example,
on ca r r y in g
s igns ,
they i n s i s t they have no l e ga l r i g h t to
a r r e s t peop le
fo r ca r ry ing
nas ty s igns .
And
the FBI c la ims
it s
doing eve ry th ing
it
can, and we v e been a t them a t
high l e ve l s .
But t h i s kidnapping i s r e a l l y
sca ry . They
r e a l l y have a
capac i ty fo r
doing
it.
MR
ARMITAGE:
We ve g o t t en a l l our
advisers
and
we
h a v e n t been ab le to f ind any th ing .
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: You
c a n t
prosecu te
somebody
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17
who
pub l i c ly says somebody
e l se i s going to kidnap
somebody?
MR ARMITAGE Apparent ly not - - if they a t t r i b u t e
it to somebody e l se and
they
make
a
s ta tement t ha t makes
it
c l ea r
they wi l l do
it.
They usua l ly couch it in
t ha t
way.
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: And
giving
publ ic i ty
to
such
a
t h r ea t
does not - -
MR
LEIGH
I
doubt t ha t t ha t could poss ib ly
be cons idered
p a r t
o f the conspi racy
- - to kidnap
or a
t h rea t
to kidnap.
SECRETARY KISSINGER: Well
the Sovie ts
are
bound to do something and it s j u s t indecent of
us
to
wax
so ind ignan t when they
for
weeks
have
been
harassed in the
most
unforgivable way
and
then
for
us to
be
so se l f - r i gh t eous l y
ind ignan t
yesterday .
Th a t s
r ea l ly
d i s t r e s s i ng .
On
t h i s i s sue
t h e y r e
r i g h t .
There s
a
l i m i t to the domest ic p o l i t i c s
we
can play .
You
know
damn wel l
t h a t
our people in Moscow - - t h a t s one th ing
they
d o n t do:
haras s them
gra t u i t ous l y .
But what are
we going to do?
Can we
make
a
s ta tement today
condemning these?
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hospi t a l .
The
pol ice , for tuna te ly , provided very
good
protec t ion
and
the re was no se
ous
d i f
cul ty
or
idents .
And
apparent ly Malik was
t ty wel l
s
s ed - - a t l e a s t , on
t ha t
occasion
th the kind
of response he
got .
SECRETARY KISSINGER
O.K.
Are you f in ished?
(Addresses Mr.Armitage.)
MR
ARMITAGE
Yes,
s
SECRETARY
KISSINGER Bi l l ?
MR ROGERS
The
chie f negot i a tor in
Panama
has res igned.
It looks as though for personal
reasons
he s
going
to be succeeded, in
a l l
probabi l i ty , by
Guerra, who s
a
former Foreign Minis ter .
SECRETARY KISSINGER
I d o n t
th ink
~ s
such a grea t
loss , i s
he?
MR ROGERS No, s i r .
It
wouldn t
seem t ha t
way
- - even
in
Panama.
In
Argent ina ,
al though
the
jun ta
has
had
some
pre t ty
good
success , we re
t ry ing
to
make
whatever
est imates
we
can about what s going to happen. We ve
asked
both
the
Mission
and
Washington to do t h e i r own
v i sua l i za t i ons - - to compare them. But I th ink the
pre l iminary es t ima te has got to
be
tha t
it s
going to go
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downhil l .
s
jun ta
l t e s ng
the bas ic p ropos i t ion
tha t
Argent ina i s not governable , so
r e
going to
succeed where
everybody
e l se
has
fa i l ed .
I
th ink
t h a t s a d i s t i n c t l y
odds-on
choice .
I
th ink
we re going
to
look
for
a
cons iderab le
e f f o r t to involve the United Sta t e s
- -
pa r t i cu l a r ly
in
the f inanc ia l
f i e ld .
I th ink
w e r e going
to see a
good
deal
SECRETARY KISSINGER
Yes, but
t h a t s
in
our
in te re s t .
MR ROGERS I f t h e r e s a chance o f it
succeeding
and if
t hey re
not asking
us
to put too much
up
on
the t ab le . What
we re going to t r y
to
do,
when
and
if they
come
up with
such a plan , i s
what
we were
prepared
to do about
s i x
months
ago.
We had worked
ou t as i n t e rmed ia r i e s a
sens ib le
program fo r i n t e r -
na t iona l a s s i s tance , using the pr i va t e banks and
monetary i n s t i t u t i o n s .
Whether
we
can
pu l l
t h a t
of f
aga in ,
I
d o n t
know;
bu t I th ink we re going to hear
from
them very
e a r ly
on
in
terms
of f inanc ia l
programs.
I
th ink
a l so we ve
go t to
expect a f a i r amount
of rep ress ion ,
probably
a good deal o f blood,
in
Argent ina
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21
before
too
long. I t h ink t h e y r e going to
have
to
come down hard
not only
on
the
t e r r o r i s t s
bu t
on
the
d i s s i d e n t s
o f t r ade
unions
and
t h e i r par t i e s .
SECRETARY KISSINGER: But
MR ROGERS: The
p o in t
I m making i s
t h a t
a l though they
have
good pres s today , the b a s i c l i ne
o f a l l the i n t e r f e r e n c e was they had to do it because
she
c o u l d n t
run the coun t ry .
So I t h ink the
p o in t i s
t h a t we ought not a t
t h i s
moment to
rush
out
and
embrace
t h i s new regime - -
t h a t
t h r e e - s i x
months
l a t e r w i l l be
cons ide rab ly l e s s
popular with
the
pres s .
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: But
we
sh o u l d n t
do the
oppos i t e
e i t h e r .
MR
ROGERS:
Oh
no;
obvious ly
not .
MR McCLOSKEY: What do we say
about
recogn i t ion?
MR
ROGERS: Well
w e r e
going
to recogn ize
th
morning
a formal note in response to
t h e i r r eq u es t
fo r
r ecogn i t ion as
have
v i r t u a l l y a l l the o t h e r
coun t r ies o f Lat in
America.
But
beyond
t ha t ,
H i l l w i l l
k ~ p h i s
mouth shu t .
SECRETARY KISSINGER: Yes bu t what does t h a t
mean conc re t e ly?
Whatever
chance they
have they w i l l
need
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22
a li encouragement
from
us .
What
i s
he t e l l i n g them?
MR ROGERS: What?
Oh,
noth ing . He has
not
been
t a l k i n g
with
them y e t . He has n o t been i n v i t e d
to t a lk with
them. H e s
ready to go in
and
t a l k
with
them when and if they r eques t a meet ing . But the
Generals who a re now p re se n t l y occupying the M i n i s t e r i a l pos t s
a re
the re very
t empora r i ly probab ly
fo r
t he
week
- -
u n t i l t he
j u n t a
can make its
f i n a l
dec i s ions as
to
whom
t h e y r e going t o appo in t . They w i l l
make d e c i s i o n s
on who they w i l l
appo in t
w i t h i n a week.
We t h ink we know who s the
Fo re ig n
Mi n i s t e r
- -
which i s the key appoin tment .
SECRETARY
KISSINGER:
Who?
t A
MR ROGERS: Probab ly a fe l low named ~ ~ ~ 1 u
who we
have worked
with
in
the pa s t .
And
if
he
i s appo in ted ,
then I t h ink we re in a p o s i t i o n t o work with him.
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
But
can I see some
i n s t r u c t i o n s on what
y o u r e
going
to
tell H i l l if
somebody shou ld come
in
- -
MR ROGERS:
Yes.
SECRETARY
KISSINGER:
because I do want
to
encourage
them.
I d o n t want
to
give the
sense
t h a t
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• LEWISi
two
York
Most
of
Russians
t.
Most the
some
so
So it s a
Do
Mr
want
us to
a
be
use
or not?
SECRETARY KISSINGER: I t see
we
can
a
MR
LEWIS:
2
cans
s
as to
ther
re to
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24
be out tomorrow. That i s now pub l i c ly known
everywhere.
I f a debate takes place ,
it
wi l l
focus on
the
South Afr ican presence in Namibia
r a t he r
than Angola.
On the
o ther hand, the Cubans are
the only
fore ign
t roops now
in
Angola, so
the Chinese
are going
to h i t
the Russians very hard in the debate
next
week, and
we can a lso
do the same; so there are some arguments
e i the r way.
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: Well,
I would
genera l ly
th ink we re
b e t t e r
of f
with no debate . We ve
made
our po in t
on
Angola
severa l
t imes.
MR LEWIS: Yes,
s i r .
SECRETARY
KISSINGER:
But
I wouldn t
s p i l l blood over it I f t he re i s , we should h i t fo re ign
in te rvent ion in Angola and
ask
fo r the
withdrawal
of
Cuban t roops .
MR LEWIS:
All
r igh t .
rhat
s a l l .
SECRETARY KISSINGER: Hal?
HR SAUNDERS:
Since
Lebanon was
mentioned,
I
want
to
men·tion another
i s sue on
which you may be
approached
in the next few weeks from
the
academic
community,
and
t h i s i s
the
Russian
Research Center a t
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25
Harvard.
As you
know,
t hey ve been coming
on
increas ingly
d i f f i c u l t
t imes f i nanc i a l l y to the poin t where
Harvard
looks l i ke
it s
meeting about
one - f i f th
of i t s planned
budget next
year.
SECRETARY
KISSINGER:
Are they f inanced mostly
by
the
Government?
MR
SAUNDERS:
They were
to
rece ive
Defense
money.
\ivhen
t ha t receded, as you remember, l a s t year ,
we
put
some pro jec t money in r a the r than program-type money.
And
the approach
tha t
wi l l
be made
to us
th i s
year i s
fo r the Sta te
Department
to seek from Congress the
author i ty to provide bas ic
grant
money to perhaps
as
many as
30
of
these
centers
around the count ry
some
of which
a:re in danger
of
c los ing t he i r doors.
SECRETARY KISSINGER: And how
much would
we
need? It s a l o t
of money.
MR SAUNDERS:
Four
and
a
ha l f
mil l ion
dol la rs?
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
Mill ion?
MR SAUNDERS: Mil l ion , yes
- -
of course.
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: For 30
i n s t i t u t i o n s .
MR SAUNDERS:
You would
f igure , j u s t hypothe t ica l ly ,
to
two hundred
thousand
- - tha t
would be maximum.
Nobody
' - '--'
--
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26
has cos ted th i s out
yet ,
and I 'm giving you an
outs ide
f igure .
It
could
be
l ess .
SECRETARY KISSINGER: But
what
do they do
with
200,000?
MR
SAUNDERS: At the
Harvard
Center the
budget i s
150,000
fo r next year ,
so
we re
r ea l ly
t a lk ing per
cente r about re la t ive ly small amounts of
money. They
have a
research con t rac t with the
cente r for s ix ty thousand th i s
year .
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: Studying
what?
MR
SAUNDERS:
Dynamics
of Sovie t - -
SECRETARY KISSINGER: And who's doing i t ?
I 'm not
sure .
It s not
many
governments
who
f inance
s tud ies
t ha t
demonstra te t he i r incompetence.
(Laughter.
What
do you th ink you r e
going
to ge t out of
a
Harvard
study
on the Sovie t Union?
MR SAUNDERS:
It
needs
some
more
bas ic
dynamics of
dec is ion-making
processes .
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
In the
Sovie t Union?
MR
SAUNDERS:
Right .
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: On
th i s one I 'm bas i ca l l y
sympathet ic , though
I
have no i l lu s ions about what s going
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27
to come out of it
MR
SAUNDERS
No.
I
th ink we re a l l in the
same
boa t . The ques t ion
i s
r ea l ly
whether the
Government
should suppor t t h i s
kind
of
i n s t i t u t i on
in the
count ry .
And
t he re are two ways
of going
about it
one, the Nat ional Defense Con®unications Act, where HEW
concen t ra tes mainly
on broad
c i t i z e n
educat ion and tends
no t to concen t ra te on
the
s pe c i a l i z e d
cente r s . And
the
a l t e rna t ive would be fo r
the
Department to c o n c e n t r t e ~
l
on
the spec ia l ized cente r s .
We l l
send you
a memo
on t h i s ou t l i n ing
the pros
and cons.
There are
a
l o t of othe r people to be worked
i n t o the process ,
but
we ve heard
t ha t some people are
going
to
approach
you
in
some way
o r
another
o r Larry .
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: They
have
to
be despera te .
(Laughter . )
MR
EAGLEBURGER
W e l l never
ge t
it from
Congress.
I
hope you unders tand t ha t .
MR
SAUNDERS
Well ,
I
suppose
t h a t s t rue ,
but
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: Why
won t
we
ge t
i t ?
Is
t h a t
under Hays
too?
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28
MR EAGLEBURGER:
Yes.
Hays would be a l l r igh t ,
but
I
th ink
Slack would be very
opposed.
MR SAUNDERS The pos i t ion we re
in
now,
as
you r e c a l l - -
we concent ra ted in four main
areas of
research ,
a f t e r
an
approach
to
you
about
a year and a
ha l f
ago,
as I
understand
it. And we re now funding
research pro jec t s
pa r t ly fo r the
sake of
the research
but pa r t ly fo r the sake of the i n s t i t u t i ona l suppor t
involved.
SECRETARY KISSINGER I
hope
you r ea l i ze tha t
Joe ( re fe r r ing
to
Mr. Sisco) needs a
s lug
of th i s
money.
MR
SISCO: Well , I
r ea l i ze it.
(Laughter . )
MR HABIB You can s t a r t an i n s t i t u t e , Joe ,
r igh t
away.
(Laughter . )
MR
SAUNDERS:
It s
j u s t something tha t
has
to be
explored with in the Government. A
decis ion
has to be
made
one
way
or another .
I ju s t
wanted to bring
th i s forward
to
you;
I ju s t wanted you to
be
a le r ted .
SECRETARY
KISSINGER
O.K.
Roy?
MR ATHERTON: Well , I guess the bes t th ing to
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9
be sa id about
Lebanon
i s it s
highly
di f fused .
Laughter . )
SECRETARY
KISSINGER:
Tha t s
advantage o f
having a profess iona l organiz
on
s tudying
th i s .
Laughter . ) Cut
through the
fog to
r e a l i t y .
MR
ATHER rON:
Well , the
mi l i t a ry
s i tua t ion ,
as
f a r as we
can t e l l t h i s
morning - - t he re
h a s n t
been
any
s ign i cant move on the
ground,
bu t the re has been
heavy
s he l l i ng
and
casua l t i e s
are
high.
On the po l i t i c a l s i de , seve ra l th
F i r s t
o f a l l , possib ly the
most
s i g n i f i c a n t development - -
has
t o ld us h e s going
to
Damascus tomorrow
and
has
ind ica ted h e s prepared
to
t a l k about a
cons t i t u t i ona l
t r ans i t i on , prov id ing it
happens
quickly .
On the o ther hand,
Fran j iyah
has
announced
t h a t
he w i l l
never
ever res ign u n t i l
e xp i r a t i on
of
s
term.
SECRETARY KISSINGER: Which i s when?
MR ATHERTON: September.
The
Syr ian
formula
i s
t h a t
it
has
an
amendment
in
the consutu t ion
which would
provide
fo r - - make
it
possib le for the
Pres iden t to re s ign
s ix
months
before
the t e rmina t ion o f his term and then
agree
on
a
successor
- - and then he would res ign
a l l
with in a very
b r i e f per iod
o
1
u t h o n t y t i \ ~
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30
of t ime.
What h e s
say ing
pub l i c ly
makes
t
look as though he has
backed
away from th i s idea.
The
Chr is t i ans are obviously fee l ing more
despera te . We ve had
approaches
now
from them.
has
asked
for U
S. c l a r i f i c a t i on , suggest ing
poss ib ly
going to the
Secur i ty
Counci l .
Charles
Malik has approached
us,
al though I
l a rge ly
discount
his importance or
e f fec t iveness
now
in
the s i tua t ion .
The
Syrians
SECRETARY KISSINGER
r igh t
wing
i s n t
he?
MR ATHERTON:
Sorry?
SECRETARY
KISSINGER
~ t l t i s r i g h t wing?
MR
SISCO:
Former.
MR
ATHERTON: Former.
SECRETARY KISSINGER I know.
MR ATHERTON: The Syr t ians : The s igna ls
are somewhat mixed. In Lebanon i t s e l f , the Syrian army
off icers
who
have
been
pa r t of the
mediat ing
team
re turned
to Damascus.
And t h e r e s some ind ica t ion
t ha t
some
of the Syr ian-cont ro l led PLA
and disengaging
- - · · - r i . : c l · , - ; \ s ~ s i - , ~ - i i ~ o · - - 1
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o un:
· • ' , · · · '
MR ATHERTON:
No--
MR
SISCO:
No.
MR A rHERTON:
but t h e r e ' s a l o t in the
press
today
t ha t w i l l l ead
to
ques t ion ing
when
you
appear before the
Humphrey
Subcommittee.
The
t h r u s t o f the
press
s to r i e s
i s
t h a t
we
are
32
leaning towards
s e l l i n g
the c iv i l i a n vers ion
o f
the
C-130,
and
th
i s a confusion.
The problem
i s
t h i s : Defense
would l ike
very much
to
s e l l the expor t model which comes of f of the
product ion
l i ne ,
under which the
r s t
would
be
ava i lab le
in
December.
I
th ink
what
pos i t i on
we
have
to
t ake
i s t ha t we ought to
keep open
the opt ion and t ha t
we ve not made a decis ion u n t i l we can
discuss
with the
Egypt ians what they want.
SECRETARY KISSINGER: We have
promised to
the
Egypt ians the
Air
Force model.
MR ATHERTON: Yes.
SECRETARY KISSINGER: Now, there
i s
no o ther
opt ion to be discussed .
There w i l l be no othe r
opt ion
to be
d iscussed ,
Roy.
MR ATHER rON:
No
- - w e ' v e
been making t h a t
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HIUL I :U
u lL
• ' ' ' ' ' ' '
33
poin t with Defense t h a t we cannot forec lose what we
have
a l ready
promised
the Egyptians.
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
They
cannot forec lose
it They
have no othe r choice.
MR. ATHER I ON: We have
ed
very
hard
to
make
MR. HABIB:
There
i s a t echnica l th ing .
What s
the model
l e t t e r
- - A, B, C,
D
F?
Do you know what model?
There
are some
problems.
SECRETARY KISSINGER: There
were
spec i f i c
promises made.
I
do not
accept
the propos i t ion
t ha t
we se t t l e na t iona l
pol icy by
negot ia t ion among
Assi s t an t Secre ta r i es . The
Pres ident made
a
promise
to
Sadat
- - which wi l l be
kept
- - unless the
Congress
s tops it
There i s no
p o s s ib i l i t y of de l ive r ing it
in December when we promised to del iver it in Apri l .
MR.
ATHERTON:
This
i s what we expect .
We
have been t e l l i ng Defense so tha t they
would
not go
publ ic - - which they wanted to
do,
saying tha t
it
was
going to
be the
export model.
MR. SISCO: That k i l l e d it Why d o n t
I
give
Clements
a
ca l l and say prec i se ly
- -
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: And
t e l l him what Schles inger
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Pres t .
MR
SIS
Yes.
I ll
c
us
to come
out
meant
we
would
which I
was to
t h a t
made.
So we l l ed
SECRETARY KISSINGER: But why
doesn t
one
in th i s
- - o r
me
- -
who
know
t s?
MR ATHERTON: Well, we
it
s te rday.
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
Yes,
e
they
11
s t a r t l eaking it now.
a lready.
MR SISCO: They ve wri t t en the press s tory
MR ATHERTON: It could lead to ques t ions .
MR FUNSETH:
They
a lready leaked it to the
press th i s morning.
MR SISCO: I know.
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
Go
ahead. Jules?
4
MR
KATZ:
The Second Session the
Commission
ends
today.
Also,
t he r e s a
copper consul ta t ion in
Geneva
t ha t s
been
going
a l l week,
and t ha t
ends today
as
wel l .
DECL SSIFIED
u t h o r i t y f i \ ~ ~ ~ r ~ ~ ~ ~ = ~ =
On t h ~ ~ Commission, a f t e r a slow
s t a r t
they ve
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t t l l l l l
,
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aLIIIt . ~ ' ' '
36
The
repor t
we have
i s
t ha t
they have
r ea l ly
been
qui te s
ous. We have
sa id , Le t ' s
s t a r t discuss ing
the
problem before we t a lk
about measures, and
they 've
accepted
tha t .
The only
problem
on the copper t a lks
has
been
the
UNCTAD Sec re t a r i a t - -
which
wi l l be
get t ing
worse
in
'77.
We
sa id ,
We
don ' t
need
the
f ac t s ;
we
know
what
the fac ts
are .
SECRETARY
KISSINGER Who runs the
UNCTAD
Secre t a r i a t ?
MR.
KATZ A man
by
the
name of C ~ and
I
th ink he ' s
been
doing some consul ta t ions around the world
on the fu ture of UNCTAD; and he ' s recognized th i s
problem
- - tha t the
Sec re t a r i a t
and
the
profess iona l
s t a f f
see themselves as an LDC Secre t a r i a t , and t hey ' r e not
objec t ive in
any
sense of
the term.
I th ink t h i s 1s one of the r ea l i n s t i t u t i ona l
problems
with
UNCTAD.
Some
people
wi l l
have
to
be -
MR.
LEWIS One of the th ings t h a t
. K Q ~ a ~
has
proposed - - tha t
may
very wel l h a p p e n - - i s t h a t t hey ' r e
going to
s e t
up t h e i r own Sec re t a r i a t sepa ra te ly . And
in
UNCTAD
he
wants to be a more
balanced
ne go t i a to r
in
Secre ta r ia t
form.
D f ~ C L A S S I F I E D
A u l h o r i t y i { \ \ ~
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37
MR. LEWIS
That
may happen.
SECRE I ARY
KISSINGER
What?
MR. MAW: We w i l l
have
two
77 Secre ta r ia t s .
MR. KATZ Well , I d o n t th ink so. I think
tha t
might
be
a
good p o i n t - -
I d o n t know.
The
quest ion i s :
Who w i l l pay for
tha t? The
UN Sec re t a r i a t
has
to
pay
for
tha t
77?
Mr.
Secre tary,
the
othe r
poin t : I th ink
t ha t you
know
tha t the Pres iden t s speech to the
t ex t i l e indus t ry
today
probably
wi l l
have the reference
SECRETARY KISSINGER I was
to ld
it
would be
ta.ken
out .
MR. LORD: It s a memo
to the Pres ident saying
you oppose any reference to it, bu t Baker and Mortonand Dent
are
more
fo r a
compromise language.
SECRETARY
KISSINGER There
i s no compromise
language
poss ib le .
Once
the
Pres ident
ment ions
the
PRC - - not mat te r how
so f t ly
- - h e s got h imse l f
a
major problem.
MR. LORD: I c o u l d n t
agree
more.
I th ink
you
b e t t e r
ca l l the Pres ident .
SECRETARY KISSINGER Well , I
ca l l ed
Scowcroft
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38
and he
t o l d me
it would be taken out .
MR
LORD:
The othe r
pos i t ions
are a lso on
the
table .
MR HABIB: This i s as o f yesterday evening
they were still having it in .
MR KATZ: Well ,
as of
about
a
quar te r to
seven
l a s t
night I
was
to ld tha t
it
went in
to
the
Pres ident with the
s ta tement t ha t Morton
and
Dent
and Baker
wanted
it in and you were opposed. And I assume
Scowcrof t was opposed.
SECRETARY
KISSINGER: Who s Baker? What s
his
s tanding
in
there?
MR KATZ: No. 2 in Commerce.
MR HABIB:
No mat ter
how
they
adjus t
the
wording,
it s still
the tac;k r
MR
LORD:
And,
as I understand,
the only
country(mentioning}the
speech
>.-,..,
-£
MR KATZ: It s the
only country where
there
i s
a
problem.
MR LORD:
Yes, but you
can
t a lk
in
genera l
terms about the
problem.
SECRETARY KISSINGER: You
cannot mention the PRC
DECL SSIFIED
A u t h o r i t y { S . \ ~ \
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39
without having a major
c r i s i s
with the PRC And
it
wi l l not be done
without
an abso uproar
out
of
th i s
ld ing ,
and
nobody
i s
going to cooperate
with
t ha t
so r t
of
approach.
MR HABIB: I
th ink Morton
i s
going
to
take
the ca l l from
you.
SECRETARY
KISSINGER:
Has
he
been
i nv i t i ng
i t ?
MR HABIB:
Yes.
SECRETARY KISSINGER:
I ll
put
in
a
ca l l r igh t
now.
In f ac t , I have to ca l l the Pres iden t .
Larry, can
I
see you for
a
minute?
MR EAGLEBURGER: Yes, s i r .
Whereupon,
a t 8:56 a .m. , the
Secre t a ry s
Sta f f
Meeting
was concluded.)
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