reunión en washington 26 de marzo 1976

8/19/2019 Reunión en Washington 26 de marzo 1976

1/40


2/40

<

tht• ntional r c h i v e ~

Secre

o f S t a t e

ss

r

Chairman

Mr. Inge r so l l

p

Mr.

s

co

E

Mr. Robinson

T

Ivlr.

Maw

M

Mr.

Eagleburger

F Mr.

Mulcahy

Acting)

R Mr.

Rogers

E Mr.

Habib

EUR Mr.

Armitage

NE

Mr.

therton

INR Mr.

Saunders

S/P

Mr.

Lord

EB

Mr.

Katz

Acting)

S/PRS

Mr. Funse th

PM

Mr.

Vest

IO

Mr. Lewis

H

Ambassador

McCloskey

L

Mr. Leigh

S/S

Mr. Spr ings t een

s Mr. Barbian

G D S

G D S

DECL SSIFIED


3/40

at till 1ationa1 A r c h i v ~ S

2

P R C

E D I N G S

s

S t a f f Meeting

was

convened

a t

8 : 1 2 a . m . , Secre

o f Sta t e

ss inger pres id ing

as i rman.)

MR. INGERSOLL:

Good morning, Henry.

Discuss ion

o f f

the record . )

MR

INGERSOLL:

The

boyco t t

could

have

se r ious

impl i ca t ions . W e l l have a

paper

to you

on

t ha t ,

and

we

c a n t

f ind out any th ing about it - -

SECRETARY KISSINGER:

What

i s th is? The J us t i c e

Department

- -

MR INGERSOLL: Yes.

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: i s

i nve s t i ga t ing the

i ~

o i l companies

fo r

t h e i r

conduct

dur ing the boycot t

the one t ime they

behaved

in a p a t r i o t i c fashion.

MR

INGERSOLL: Well , in may not

be

l imi t ed in

t ha t

per iod , but it s t a r t s t he re .

SECRETARY

KISSINGER:

One

t ime

they

kep t

everybody going by p u t t i n g o i l

i n t o

one b ig pool ,

and

t h a t s

a n t i - t r u s t .

MR LEIGH: Well , they

won t

t e l l us very

much

about it Mr. Secre ta ry . T h a t s why

we

need your

he lp

on

it before the

grand

jury

i s

convened. Now t h i s

DECL SSIFIED


4/40

lf

tht :\ational

Archiv •s

i s

not

j u s t

a c l

inves

Once

t h a t ' s done,

we

wouldn t be able to say

anything.

MR.

INGERSOLL: Tha t ' s why we

th ink

we have

to

move

on

it, and they say it s very conf iden

a l . They

j u s t t o ld

us

about it. They won' t t e l l us

anything

about

tne

de ta i l s - - i f t h a t ' s

' consul ta t ion

( l augh te r ) .

I wi l l have it to

you

today.

One o ther po in t

I ' d

l i ke

to

make i s th i s

may be

my

l a s t St a f f

Meet ing,

Henry, and

I ll

be th inking

of

a l l

of you on the s lopes of Aspen

maybe

next week.

(I,aughter.)

1 - lR.

IVIAW:

The

s l ippe ry

s lope.

MR. INGERSOLL: Yes.


Bob, we ' re

going to have a

cockta i l pa r ty for you, where, I suppose, most of

these

people are going to e i bu t I need not t e l l

you

how

much

you wi l l

be

missed.

MR. INGERSOLL: Thank you.

I ll miss a l l

of you.

SECRETARY

KISSINGER:

I want to t e l l you

t ha t with digni ty and calm you performed

t h i s job

and

even diplomats wil l not say

t h i s

of me when I

leave . Keep your l aughing with in l imi t s .

(Laughter . )

MR.

EAGLEBURGER:

He s

not

a

diplomat

(poin t ing

DECL SSIFIED


5/40

l tilt·

\alional

;\rchin:s

4

to Mr.

Leigh) .

MR

SISCO:

I ha ve n t

anything.

MR ROBINSON:

I j u s t came back from New York,

Associa t ion .

I want to r e por t t h a t they announced

your forthcoming speech

before t h a t

group on the Law

of

the Sea

and

everyone

became very

exc i t ed .

Two

women fa in ted in the f ront row ( l aughte r ) , and it was

very

sha t t e r i ng . My

i n f e r i o r i t y

complex

was

with

me

j u s t before I was to speak.

But I ju s t want

you

to know

t ha t t hey re

very exc i t ed

about your coming up.

SECRETARY

KISSINGER:

Why only

two?

(Laughter . )

MR

INGERSOLL: Tha t s a l l t he re

were.

(Laughter .

MR

ROBINSON:

They re

very

pleased ,

and I

ju s t wanted

to t e l l

you how exc i ted they were about

your forthcoming

speech.

SECRETARY

KISSINGER:

Are

we

get t ing

a

dra f t ?

I f t ha t

boy

dra f t s as well as he

t a lk s ,

it s going to

be

the grea t e s t speech s ince the Get tysburg Address.

MR

EAGLEBURGER:

It

wi l l

be

longer .

(Laughter.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: We can

put in

some of

the de ta i l s , depending on the discuss ions with

Treasury,

but

I had the sense

yes terday t ha t

we were going to ge t

DECLASSIFIED


6/40

I 1hl Nation: l Archives

DEC

L SS I

( I

most

of our

proposals .

MR. LORD:

I th ink we

can

ge t

ce r t a

ly enough

with t ha t speech.

SECRE I ARY KISSINGER:

0.

K.

MR.

MULCAHY:

Now

t h i s day

the suspense of the

t a lks in Lusaka t ha t we at tached qu i t e a b i t of

importance

to

broke up without a s ta tement .

SECRETARY KISSINGER: The

t a l k s where?

MR. MULCAHY: This was the

Four

Power t a l k s - -

Presidents

Machel

Khama Nyerere and Kaunda meet ing

in

Lusaka

on where they could go from

here

with

the

~ o d e s i a n

s i tua t ion . They

had

both

Rhodesian

na t iona l i s t fac t ions the re

and Nkomo apparent ly

according to

the

press . No r econc i l i a t i on took place

\

between

Nkomo and Nyerere which was

one of

the

purposes

of the th ing .

Also it broke up without any s o r t of communique

which i s not a good s ign

and - -


VJhy

MR.

MULCAHY:

Well

- -

SECRETARY KISSINGER: t

means - -

MR. MULCAHY: ~ J e l l , it means t h a t Nkomo

and Kaunda

who

are

genera l ly

r e l i a b l e

as

f a r

as

the


7/40

6

ne

t

concerned,

r

s

S I ~ i C R E T R Y

KISSINGER: But

it

a l so means

t

the

1

uade

the re

t

be

ne

ia

M L

MULCAHY:

Yes, t h a t s r igh t . I f y o u r e an

s t , t ake

t h a t

view.


I f

y o u r e

a r e a l i s t

I

mean,

what e l se

can it

mean? It

means

they

could

MR MULCAHY: Yes, s i r .


But

what s more l i ke l y

to

?

MR MULCAHY: Well , I

th ink

if

SECRE rARY KISSINGER: Where i s

the

A s s i s t a n t

Secre ta ry , i nc ide n ta l l y?

MR MULCAHY: He s

on h i s

way back from

Par i s .

He went

to

the re in fo rced NAC

in

Brusse l s ,

and

h e l l

be

back t h i s af te rnoon .

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Go

ahead.

MR

MULCAHY:

But what probably wi l l happen i s

t ha t t h i s now wi l l

i nc rease

the

pressu re on

Smith

t h a t -

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Only

in

your mind. Since

)£CLASSIFIED

Authorit

\t\\\ \


8/40

H.t•produn·tl at thl National Archin•:

he

broke

of f

the

t a lk s ,

why

should

it

i nc rease

the

sure

on him?

MR

MULCAHY: Well because they a l l

now

agree

t ha t the g u e r r i l l a warfare

w i l l

cont inue and be

s tepped up.

t ha t a

SECRETARY

KISSINGER:

ady.

I thought they a l l s a id

MR

MULCAHY; They

have but t h e r e s

r e l a t ive ly little

o f

it. But

I

th ink

now with

the

ra iny season

w e l l

see

a

grea t dea l o f i n f i l t r a t i o n

across

the border .

One

o f

the proposals under cons ide ra t ion was

to pu t

a

lway system

through Botswana

to

South Africa .

The

pr i nc i pa l r a i l l i ne w i l l a lso cause UN sanc t ions .

It s

a

kno t ty problem because the r a i l l i ne i s the

proper ty

of

the

Rhodesian Government. We

th ink t h a t t h i s

was

one of the i s sues under cons ide ra t ion .

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Can I ge t a paper

by

the

middle of next week of how we re going

to

ge t

from

here

to

the re

- - I mean what

AF v i sua l i zes

i s going to

happen

now

and

what we can

do now o ther

than

hand-wringing?

MR MULCAHY:

Yes s i r .


And exac t ly

what s t eps


9/40


10/40

al Ott

Naliowrl

ArchiH:-s

MR HABIB: One

d i d n t go.

SECRETARY

KISSINGER:

There

may

have

been

two cables ,

but I

d i d n t

see

them.

May I see

them

now?

Mr.

Barbian

hands Secre tary a

document

to peruse . )

MR HABIB: The l a s t

paragraph.

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: O.K.

Go

ahead.

MR HABIB: rhe

othe r th ing i s

t ha t

you

have approval

of the f i r s t s tage

of

the Thai

withdrawal

ac t ions .

SECRETARY

KISSINGER:

Yes, but

I want

to have

a s ign i f i can t cut a l so

in

the mil i t a ry advisers .

MR HABIB: Yes.

The ce i l i ng l 270. We re

down around

200 now.

We re supposed to go

below

t h a t

before the

end

of the


I

want the

Thais

to

see

a

withdrawal .

The Thais

d o n t know what our ce i l ing

i s .

Therefore , if

we

ju s t keep it - -

MR

HABIB: No. They

s e t

the ce i l i ng . The

ce i l i ng of 270 i s

a

ce i l i ng which - -


Have

we pu l l ed out 70


11/40

l tlw ;\ ational Archlvts

10

or

have

we

s imply

not rep laced

70?

MH HABIB:

Well, the 70 are not

the re .

SECRE rARY KISSINGER: •rhey have never

been

there?

MR

HABIB: No.

They

have been temporar i ly

withdrawn, and t he re

was

some thought o f pu l l i ng it

down lower .

SECRETARY

KISSINGER:

I

would l i ke the Thais

to

see t h a t , a f t e r

the i r

dec i s ion , the re

i s

some r educ t ion

in the pa r t they want

~

to have

s tay

MR

HABIB:

I understand.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: - -

and

we can

keep

the

ce i l i ng

and

pu t

in more

people

l a t e r

on

if

they

ask

for

it

MR HABIB:

Well,

what we want to do i s keep

the

ce i l i ng

so t ha t

l a t e r

on,

if we need to , it would

be i n t e l l i gence

people,

no t

MAG

people ,

and

vary it

with

the

MAG

SECRETARY

KISSINGER:

Tha t s

f ine .

MR HABIB:

Th a t s

what we had in mind.

Also, we

have

to now take very tough dec i s ions

on

such th ings as

pul l ing out the

ammunition

we

have

s to red

in

place .

Tha t s

going to r ea l ly show

the

Thais

what

t h i s

i s

cos t ing

because we ve

got

about

60

mil l ion


12/40

:

he : \::1tional Archin::.

SECRET

do l l a r s

worth

of

ammuni

on

which under

presen t

law

we cannot l eave the re . And we

can

e i the r s e l l it to

them or take it

out .

They re

no t going

to

buy

it

t hey re

going to

want us

to leave it there and give it

to

them - - which

would

no t be poss ib le .

Th a t s going

to

hur t .

So t h e r e s

going

to be a se r i e s

of

ac t ions

which

I

hope very f rankly ,

I d r a t he r

not t ake on

some

o f

them

u n t i l

the e l ec t i on i s out of

the

way

- - u n t i l

the

e l e c t ion i s

out

of the way - - which

i s

e igh t more

days nine more days. I f we ge t the e l ec t i on out

o f

the

way

we

may

have

a

new

government;

we may

no t

have

a

new

government. W e l l see what happens so w e l l t ry to keep

you

informed.


I

forgot .

Is the

Vice

Pres iden t

s topping t he re o r

not?

MR

HABIB: No

s i r

- -

because

o f

the

e lec t ion .

The

o ther

th ing i s

t ha t

the

Koreans

have

now

i nd ic t ed 18 people

from

the l a s t

of f i c i a l

s ta tement ,

and

they ve ind ic ted

them

under a l ess

severe

ac t than

they might

have

pu t them

under.

Now whether t h a t s the k

of

reac t ion

taken

in

response

to the

kind

of

pro te s t ,

I

d o n t know.

SE RET

DECL SSIFIED


13/40

al tltt : \atiunal

Archive:.<

At

the

same

t h e v e

r e - ind i c t e d

a

r a t he r

w el l -

known

i n t e rna t i ona l

o f f i c i a l ,

who,

under a

law,

would permi t

them

to sentence him to death . This

i s a guy who s

a l ready

sentenced to

l i f e

imprisonment

under a

previous

commitment.

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: Where l

he?

I s he

in pr ison?

MR

HABIB:

He s

in pr i son

under

a l i f e

sentence ,

and t h ey v e j u s t r e - ind i c t e d him

under

another

law which permi ts them to sentence him to

dea th .

SECRETARY

KISSINGER:

They

d o n t

t ake

any

chances, do they?

(Laughter . )

MR HABIB: They d o n t t ake any chances. The

guy

i s very s i c k , bes ides . He w o n t

make

it

for very long.

(Laughter . )

But the

rumble i s

up

on

the

Hil l . They tell me they have ac t ua l l ywr i t t en

l e t t e r s themse lves . They have w r i t t e n l e t t e r s

to

Parker to

see

what

he

can do

about

the s i t u a t i o n .

12

I have to appear before the Humphrey Subcommittee

on

Korea a t 4:00, and

I m

sure t h e y r e going to give

me a very bad t ime.

pos i t ion .

But

I th ink we

can

hold to the


14/40

at the

\ational

Archive:

13

MR. M A ~ v

I

got

a p r e t t y bad t ime

on t

be

the House

In te

onal Relat ions Committee on

Monday, and

you ' re going

to ge t t

today.


I 'm

glad

you l e t them

schedule

me so nice ly

before

these Committees.

(Laughter . )

Go

ahead.

MR.

ARMITAGE:

Art

Hartman had

to

go

to

the

doc tor

t h i s

morning.

He ' l l be here the middle of the

morning,

Mr. Secre tary .

We ve

got a couple

of

he lpfu l

developments

{

on

protec t ion of Sovi

personnel

in

Moscow.

There

was a bomb t h rea t

yes te rday .

Pa r t of the

Embassy

was

evacuated , but no bomb was found.

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: But t h a t was al ready

in the papers yesterday , or was t h a t another one?

MR. ARMI'rAGE:

No. That

was

the same.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: There are no s ta tements

to

be

made

on

the Sovie t

Union t h a t

I

do not persona l ly

c lear .

We

cannot

harass the Sovie t s every s ingle bloody

day

with

some

o ther

tough t a l k out

o f t h i s bu i ld ing ,

and

we

mishandled the th ree Missions business .

There ' s

no

need

fo r

us to shoot a t them

the day t happened.

We could have s a id

yes te rday

We are s tudying i t

- -

t ha t

DECLASSIFIED

I


15/40

t the ~ n t i o n l Archivl S

14

we

are asking

for a fu l l

repor t .

MR

FUNSETH: That

guidance tha t

I used

in

going out

to

Moscow i s press guidance two days before .

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: I

d i d n t

approve it

ther . Tha t s

how

the othe r

d isa s te r happened.

That went out as press guidance immediately.

MR

ARMITAGE:

We

now

have

one

in

New

York

Mr. Secre tary . The New York Pol i ce Department d i s -

mantled the bomb s tored out of Amtorg yesterday ,

thereby

SECRETARY

KISSINGER:

Are

we

going to pro te s t to

the

Soviets

and

say they

did

i t ?

MR

ARMITAGE: No

s i r . The search

had been made

ea r l i e r

a f t e r

the

telephone

warning

found nothing.

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: The press guidance to

Moscow

must be c leared

now

here .

There s not to be

another one tha t

I d o n t see .

MR

FUNSETH: All

r igh t ,

s i r .

MR

ARMITAGE:

The

bomb was

ac tua l ly found

by Sovie t personnel , disarmed by the pol ice . And it s

ju s t

poss ib le t ha t if

the pol ice would have

been a

little

more

v ig i l an t

they

could have been caught by th i s t ime

because they

d i d n t leave

anybody

around

a f t e r the

search.


16/40

were

for the

MR LEWIS:

There•s

nother

to

New

York

from

ano

and FBI

t

the

s

the

more

JDL

what

was

z

of

re


we re so

can we

a

s t t ement

MR

FUNSETH

Yes


17/40

n

t h ~

~ n t i o n l Archin; s

16

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: - - and

ca l l i ng on the

New York Pol ice and

o t h e r s to

a s s i s t ?

MR

SISCO:

I ll see what

we

can do with t ha t .

MR

INGERSOLL:

I c a l l e d the

Mayor,

and

the

Mayor sa i d

the Commissioner was

going to

c a l l me back. They were going t o g e t some

Federa l

ind ic tment s .

I

d o n t t h ink they have done

anything

ye t ,

have they?

MR ARMITAGE:

No.Shoot ing

i n to the Riverda le

and

the

bomb around Aerof lo t . But they say they h a v e n t

been ab le to

t u r n

up any l eads

ye t .

MR INGERSOLL:

But

some

of these harassments

t ha t

t ake

place - - the New York

Pol ice

a r r e s t

them and

l e t them go.

MR L E W I

S

: For example,

on ca r r y in g

s igns ,

they i n s i s t they have no l e ga l r i g h t to

a r r e s t peop le

fo r ca r ry ing

nas ty s igns .

And

the FBI c la ims

it s

doing eve ry th ing

it

can, and we v e been a t them a t

high l e ve l s .

But t h i s kidnapping i s r e a l l y

sca ry . They

r e a l l y have a

capac i ty fo r

doing

it.

MR

ARMITAGE:

We ve g o t t en a l l our

advisers

and

we

h a v e n t been ab le to f ind any th ing .

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: You

c a n t

prosecu te

somebody


18/40

111hc

Nationnl Archin'

17

who

pub l i c ly says somebody

e l se i s going to kidnap

somebody?

MR ARMITAGE Apparent ly not - - if they a t t r i b u t e

it to somebody e l se and

they

make

a

s ta tement t ha t makes

it

c l ea r

they wi l l do

it.

They usua l ly couch it in

t ha t

way.

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: And

giving

publ ic i ty

to

such

a

t h r ea t

does not - -

MR

LEIGH

I

doubt t ha t t ha t could poss ib ly

be cons idered

p a r t

o f the conspi racy

- - to kidnap

or a

t h rea t

to kidnap.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Well

the Sovie ts

are

bound to do something and it s j u s t indecent of

us

to

wax

so ind ignan t when they

for

weeks

have

been

harassed in the

most

unforgivable way

and

then

for

us to

be

so se l f - r i gh t eous l y

ind ignan t

yesterday .

Th a t s

r ea l ly

d i s t r e s s i ng .

On

t h i s i s sue

t h e y r e

r i g h t .

There s

a

l i m i t to the domest ic p o l i t i c s

we

can play .

You

know

damn wel l

t h a t

our people in Moscow - - t h a t s one th ing

they

d o n t do:

haras s them

gra t u i t ous l y .

But what are

we going to do?

Can we

make

a

s ta tement today

condemning these?


19/40


20/40

19

hospi t a l .

The

pol ice , for tuna te ly , provided very

good

protec t ion

and

the re was no se

ous

d i f

cul ty

or

idents .

And

apparent ly Malik was

t ty wel l

s

s ed - - a t l e a s t , on

t ha t

occasion

th the kind

of response he

got .

SECRETARY KISSINGER

O.K.

Are you f in ished?

(Addresses Mr.Armitage.)

MR

ARMITAGE

Yes,

s

SECRETARY

KISSINGER Bi l l ?

MR ROGERS

The

chie f negot i a tor in

Panama

has res igned.

It looks as though for personal

reasons

he s

going

to be succeeded, in

a l l

probabi l i ty , by

Guerra, who s

a

former Foreign Minis ter .

SECRETARY KISSINGER

I d o n t

th ink

~ s

such a grea t

loss , i s

he?

MR ROGERS No, s i r .

It

wouldn t

seem t ha t

way

- - even

in

Panama.

In

Argent ina ,

al though

the

jun ta

has

had

some

pre t ty

good

success , we re

t ry ing

to

make

whatever

est imates

we

can about what s going to happen. We ve

asked

both

the

Mission

and

Washington to do t h e i r own

v i sua l i za t i ons - - to compare them. But I th ink the

pre l iminary es t ima te has got to

be

tha t

it s

going to go


21/40

20

downhil l .

s

jun ta

l t e s ng

the bas ic p ropos i t ion

tha t

Argent ina i s not governable , so

r e

going to

succeed where

everybody

e l se

has

fa i l ed .

I

th ink

t h a t s a d i s t i n c t l y

odds-on

choice .

I

th ink

we re going

to

look

for

a

cons iderab le

e f f o r t to involve the United Sta t e s

- -

pa r t i cu l a r ly

in

the f inanc ia l

f i e ld .

I th ink

w e r e going

to see a

good

deal

SECRETARY KISSINGER

Yes, but

t h a t s

in

our

in te re s t .

MR ROGERS I f t h e r e s a chance o f it

succeeding

and if

t hey re

not asking

us

to put too much

up

on

the t ab le . What

we re going to t r y

to

do,

when

and

if they

come

up with

such a plan , i s

what

we were

prepared

to do about

s i x

months

ago.

We had worked

ou t as i n t e rmed ia r i e s a

sens ib le

program fo r i n t e r -

na t iona l a s s i s tance , using the pr i va t e banks and

monetary i n s t i t u t i o n s .

Whether

we

can

pu l l

t h a t

of f

aga in ,

I

d o n t

know;

bu t I th ink we re going to hear

from

them very

e a r ly

on

in

terms

of f inanc ia l

programs.

I

th ink

a l so we ve

go t to

expect a f a i r amount

of rep ress ion ,

probably

a good deal o f blood,

in

Argent ina


22/40

21

before

too

long. I t h ink t h e y r e going to

have

to

come down hard

not only

on

the

t e r r o r i s t s

bu t

on

the

d i s s i d e n t s

o f t r ade

unions

and

t h e i r par t i e s .

SECRETARY KISSINGER: But

MR ROGERS: The

p o in t

I m making i s

t h a t

a l though they

have

good pres s today , the b a s i c l i ne

o f a l l the i n t e r f e r e n c e was they had to do it because

she

c o u l d n t

run the coun t ry .

So I t h ink the

p o in t i s

t h a t we ought not a t

t h i s

moment to

rush

out

and

embrace

t h i s new regime - -

t h a t

t h r e e - s i x

months

l a t e r w i l l be

cons ide rab ly l e s s

popular with

the

pres s .

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: But

we

sh o u l d n t

do the

oppos i t e

e i t h e r .

MR

ROGERS:

Oh

no;

obvious ly

not .

MR McCLOSKEY: What do we say

about

recogn i t ion?

MR

ROGERS: Well

w e r e

going

to recogn ize

th

morning

a formal note in response to

t h e i r r eq u es t

fo r

r ecogn i t ion as

have

v i r t u a l l y a l l the o t h e r

coun t r ies o f Lat in

America.

But

beyond

t ha t ,

H i l l w i l l

k ~ p h i s

mouth shu t .

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Yes bu t what does t h a t

mean conc re t e ly?

Whatever

chance they

have they w i l l

need


23/40

22

a li encouragement

from

us .

What

i s

he t e l l i n g them?

MR ROGERS: What?

Oh,

noth ing . He has

not

been

t a l k i n g

with

them y e t . He has n o t been i n v i t e d

to t a lk with

them. H e s

ready to go in

and

t a l k

with

them when and if they r eques t a meet ing . But the

Generals who a re now p re se n t l y occupying the M i n i s t e r i a l pos t s

a re

the re very

t empora r i ly probab ly

fo r

t he

week

- -

u n t i l t he

j u n t a

can make its

f i n a l

dec i s ions as

to

whom

t h e y r e going t o appo in t . They w i l l

make d e c i s i o n s

on who they w i l l

appo in t

w i t h i n a week.

We t h ink we know who s the

Fo re ig n

Mi n i s t e r

- -

which i s the key appoin tment .

SECRETARY

KISSINGER:

Who?

t A

MR ROGERS: Probab ly a fe l low named ~ ~ ~ 1 u

who we

have worked

with

in

the pa s t .

And

if

he

i s appo in ted ,

then I t h ink we re in a p o s i t i o n t o work with him.


But

can I see some

i n s t r u c t i o n s on what

y o u r e

going

to

tell H i l l if

somebody shou ld come

in

- -

MR ROGERS:

Yes.

SECRETARY

KISSINGER:

because I do want

to

encourage

them.

I d o n t want

to

give the

sense

t h a t

- - - - b - E c i ~ ~ - S : · , -

s' ·ll·-·-,-,-··E

·· ··

Authority _1(/l jJ_CJJ_Cf_f/0

~ f \ J L \

; )ak _3; _t£/fz


24/40

• LEWISi

two

York

Most

of

Russians

t.

Most the

some

so

So it s a

Do

Mr

want

us to

a

be

use

or not?

SECRETARY KISSINGER: I t see

we

can

a

MR

LEWIS:

2

cans

s

as to

ther

re to


25/40

24

be out tomorrow. That i s now pub l i c ly known

everywhere.

I f a debate takes place ,

it

wi l l

focus on

the

South Afr ican presence in Namibia

r a t he r

than Angola.

On the

o ther hand, the Cubans are

the only

fore ign

t roops now

in

Angola, so

the Chinese

are going

to h i t

the Russians very hard in the debate

next

week, and

we can a lso

do the same; so there are some arguments

e i the r way.

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: Well,

I would

genera l ly

th ink we re

b e t t e r

of f

with no debate . We ve

made

our po in t

on

Angola

severa l

t imes.

MR LEWIS: Yes,

s i r .

SECRETARY

KISSINGER:

But

I wouldn t

s p i l l blood over it I f t he re i s , we should h i t fo re ign

in te rvent ion in Angola and

ask

fo r the

withdrawal

of

Cuban t roops .

MR LEWIS:

All

r igh t .

rhat

s a l l .

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Hal?

HR SAUNDERS:

Since

Lebanon was

mentioned,

I

want

to

men·tion another

i s sue on

which you may be

approached

in the next few weeks from

the

academic

community,

and

t h i s i s

the

Russian

Research Center a t

DECL SSIFIED


26/40

25

Harvard.

As you

know,

t hey ve been coming

on

increas ingly

d i f f i c u l t

t imes f i nanc i a l l y to the poin t where

Harvard

looks l i ke

it s

meeting about

one - f i f th

of i t s planned

budget next

year.

SECRETARY

KISSINGER:

Are they f inanced mostly

by

the

Government?

MR

SAUNDERS:

They were

to

rece ive

Defense

money.

\ivhen

t ha t receded, as you remember, l a s t year ,

we

put

some pro jec t money in r a the r than program-type money.

And

the approach

tha t

wi l l

be made

to us

th i s

year i s

fo r the Sta te

Department

to seek from Congress the

author i ty to provide bas ic

grant

money to perhaps

as

many as

30

of

these

centers

around the count ry

some

of which

a:re in danger

of

c los ing t he i r doors.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: And how

much would

we

need? It s a l o t

of money.

MR SAUNDERS:

Four

and

a

ha l f

mil l ion

dol la rs?


Mill ion?

MR SAUNDERS: Mil l ion , yes

- -

of course.

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: For 30

i n s t i t u t i o n s .

MR SAUNDERS:

You would

f igure , j u s t hypothe t ica l ly ,

to

two hundred

thousand

- - tha t

would be maximum.

Nobody

' - '--'

--


27/40

26

has cos ted th i s out

yet ,

and I 'm giving you an

outs ide

f igure .

It

could

be

l ess .

SECRETARY KISSINGER: But

what

do they do

with

200,000?

MR

SAUNDERS: At the

Harvard

Center the

budget i s

150,000

fo r next year ,

so

we re

r ea l ly

t a lk ing per

cente r about re la t ive ly small amounts of

money. They

have a

research con t rac t with the

cente r for s ix ty thousand th i s

year .

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: Studying

what?

MR

SAUNDERS:

Dynamics

of Sovie t - -

SECRETARY KISSINGER: And who's doing i t ?

I 'm not

sure .

It s not

many

governments

who

f inance

s tud ies

t ha t

demonstra te t he i r incompetence.

(Laughter.

What

do you th ink you r e

going

to ge t out of

a

Harvard

study

on the Sovie t Union?

MR SAUNDERS:

It

needs

some

more

bas ic

dynamics of

dec is ion-making

processes .


In the

Sovie t Union?

MR

SAUNDERS:

Right .

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: On

th i s one I 'm bas i ca l l y

sympathet ic , though

I

have no i l lu s ions about what s going


28/40

27

to come out of it

MR

SAUNDERS

No.

I

th ink we re a l l in the

same

boa t . The ques t ion

i s

r ea l ly

whether the

Government

should suppor t t h i s

kind

of

i n s t i t u t i on

in the

count ry .

And

t he re are two ways

of going

about it

one, the Nat ional Defense Con®unications Act, where HEW

concen t ra tes mainly

on broad

c i t i z e n

educat ion and tends

no t to concen t ra te on

the

s pe c i a l i z e d

cente r s . And

the

a l t e rna t ive would be fo r

the

Department to c o n c e n t r t e ~

l

on

the spec ia l ized cente r s .

We l l

send you

a memo

on t h i s ou t l i n ing

the pros

and cons.

There are

a

l o t of othe r people to be worked

i n t o the process ,

but

we ve heard

t ha t some people are

going

to

approach

you

in

some way

o r

another

o r Larry .

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: They

have

to

be despera te .

(Laughter . )

MR

EAGLEBURGER

W e l l never

ge t

it from

Congress.

I

hope you unders tand t ha t .

MR

SAUNDERS

Well ,

I

suppose

t h a t s t rue ,

but

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: Why

won t

we

ge t

i t ?

Is

t h a t

under Hays

too?


29/40

28

MR EAGLEBURGER:

Yes.

Hays would be a l l r igh t ,

but

I

th ink

Slack would be very

opposed.

MR SAUNDERS The pos i t ion we re

in

now,

as

you r e c a l l - -

we concent ra ted in four main

areas of

research ,

a f t e r

an

approach

to

you

about

a year and a

ha l f

ago,

as I

understand

it. And we re now funding

research pro jec t s

pa r t ly fo r the

sake of

the research

but pa r t ly fo r the sake of the i n s t i t u t i ona l suppor t

involved.

SECRETARY KISSINGER I

hope

you r ea l i ze tha t

Joe ( re fe r r ing

to

Mr. Sisco) needs a

s lug

of th i s

money.

MR

SISCO: Well , I

r ea l i ze it.

(Laughter . )

MR HABIB You can s t a r t an i n s t i t u t e , Joe ,

r igh t

away.

(Laughter . )

MR

SAUNDERS:

It s

j u s t something tha t

has

to be

explored with in the Government. A

decis ion

has to be

made

one

way

or another .

I ju s t

wanted to bring

th i s forward

to

you;

I ju s t wanted you to

be

a le r ted .

SECRETARY

KISSINGER

O.K.

Roy?

MR ATHERTON: Well , I guess the bes t th ing to

DECL SSIFIED

u t h o r i t y f f i ~


30/40

9

be sa id about

Lebanon

i s it s

highly

di f fused .

Laughter . )

SECRETARY

KISSINGER:

Tha t s

advantage o f

having a profess iona l organiz

on

s tudying

th i s .

Laughter . ) Cut

through the

fog to

r e a l i t y .

MR

ATHER rON:

Well , the

mi l i t a ry

s i tua t ion ,

as

f a r as we

can t e l l t h i s

morning - - t he re

h a s n t

been

any

s ign i cant move on the

ground,

bu t the re has been

heavy

s he l l i ng

and

casua l t i e s

are

high.

On the po l i t i c a l s i de , seve ra l th

F i r s t

o f a l l , possib ly the

most

s i g n i f i c a n t development - -

has

t o ld us h e s going

to

Damascus tomorrow

and

has

ind ica ted h e s prepared

to

t a l k about a

cons t i t u t i ona l

t r ans i t i on , prov id ing it

happens

quickly .

On the o ther hand,

Fran j iyah

has

announced

t h a t

he w i l l

never

ever res ign u n t i l

e xp i r a t i on

of

s

term.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Which i s when?

MR ATHERTON: September.

The

Syr ian

formula

i s

t h a t

it

has

an

amendment

in

the consutu t ion

which would

provide

fo r - - make

it

possib le for the

Pres iden t to re s ign

s ix

months

before

the t e rmina t ion o f his term and then

agree

on

a

successor

- - and then he would res ign

a l l

with in a very

b r i e f per iod

o

1

u t h o n t y t i \ ~


31/40

30

of t ime.

What h e s

say ing

pub l i c ly

makes

t

look as though he has

backed

away from th i s idea.

The

Chr is t i ans are obviously fee l ing more

despera te . We ve had

approaches

now

from them.

has

asked

for U

S. c l a r i f i c a t i on , suggest ing

poss ib ly

going to the

Secur i ty

Counci l .

Charles

Malik has approached

us,

al though I

l a rge ly

discount

his importance or

e f fec t iveness

now

in

the s i tua t ion .

The

Syrians

SECRETARY KISSINGER

r igh t

wing

i s n t

he?

MR ATHERTON:

Sorry?

SECRETARY

KISSINGER

~ t l t i s r i g h t wing?

MR

SISCO:

Former.

MR

ATHERTON: Former.

SECRETARY KISSINGER I know.

MR ATHERTON: The Syr t ians : The s igna ls

are somewhat mixed. In Lebanon i t s e l f , the Syrian army

off icers

who

have

been

pa r t of the

mediat ing

team

re turned

to Damascus.

And t h e r e s some ind ica t ion

t ha t

some

of the Syr ian-cont ro l led PLA

and disengaging

- - · · - r i . : c l · , - ; \ s ~ s i - , ~ - i i ~ o · - - 1

A u t h o r i t y { ' \ J ~

j.{ '< 'T t\.1 \

I A

r l

t


32/40


33/40

o un:

· • ' , · · · '

MR ATHERTON:

No--

MR

SISCO:

No.

MR A rHERTON:

but t h e r e ' s a l o t in the

press

today

t ha t w i l l l ead

to

ques t ion ing

when

you

appear before the

Humphrey

Subcommittee.

The

t h r u s t o f the

press

s to r i e s

i s

t h a t

we

are

32

leaning towards

s e l l i n g

the c iv i l i a n vers ion

o f

the

C-130,

and

th

i s a confusion.

The problem

i s

t h i s : Defense

would l ike

very much

to

s e l l the expor t model which comes of f of the

product ion

l i ne ,

under which the

r s t

would

be

ava i lab le

in

December.

I

th ink

what

pos i t i on

we

have

to

t ake

i s t ha t we ought to

keep open

the opt ion and t ha t

we ve not made a decis ion u n t i l we can

discuss

with the

Egypt ians what they want.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: We have

promised to

the

Egypt ians the

Air

Force model.

MR ATHERTON: Yes.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Now, there

i s

no o ther

opt ion to be discussed .

There w i l l be no othe r

opt ion

to be

d iscussed ,

Roy.

MR ATHER rON:

No

- - w e ' v e

been making t h a t

DECLASSIFIED

A u t h o r i t y f f i ~ )


34/40

HIUL I :U

u lL

• ' ' ' ' ' ' '

33

poin t with Defense t h a t we cannot forec lose what we

have

a l ready

promised

the Egyptians.


They

cannot forec lose

it They

have no othe r choice.

MR. ATHER I ON: We have

ed

very

hard

to

make

MR. HABIB:

There

i s a t echnica l th ing .

What s

the model

l e t t e r

- - A, B, C,

D

F?

Do you know what model?

There

are some

problems.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: There

were

spec i f i c

promises made.

I

do not

accept

the propos i t ion

t ha t

we se t t l e na t iona l

pol icy by

negot ia t ion among

Assi s t an t Secre ta r i es . The

Pres ident made

a

promise

to

Sadat

- - which wi l l be

kept

- - unless the

Congress

s tops it

There i s no

p o s s ib i l i t y of de l ive r ing it

in December when we promised to del iver it in Apri l .

MR.

ATHERTON:

This

i s what we expect .

We

have been t e l l i ng Defense so tha t they

would

not go

publ ic - - which they wanted to

do,

saying tha t

it

was

going to

be the

export model.

MR. SISCO: That k i l l e d it Why d o n t

I

give

Clements

a

ca l l and say prec i se ly

- -

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: And

t e l l him what Schles inger


35/40

Pres t .

MR

SIS

Yes.

I ll

c

us

to come

out

meant

we

would

which I

was to

t h a t

made.

So we l l ed

SECRETARY KISSINGER: But why

doesn t

one

in th i s

- - o r

me

- -

who

know

t s?

MR ATHERTON: Well, we

it

s te rday.


Yes,

e

they

11

s t a r t l eaking it now.

a lready.

MR SISCO: They ve wri t t en the press s tory

MR ATHERTON: It could lead to ques t ions .

MR FUNSETH:

They

a lready leaked it to the

press th i s morning.

MR SISCO: I know.


Go

ahead. Jules?

4

MR

KATZ:

The Second Session the

Commission

ends

today.

Also,

t he r e s a

copper consul ta t ion in

Geneva

t ha t s

been

going

a l l week,

and t ha t

ends today

as

wel l .

DECL SSIFIED

u t h o r i t y f i \ ~ ~ ~ r ~ ~ ~ ~ = ~ =

On t h ~ ~ Commission, a f t e r a slow

s t a r t

they ve


36/40

t t l l l l l

,


37/40

aLIIIt . ~ ' ' '

36

The

repor t

we have

i s

t ha t

they have

r ea l ly

been

qui te s

ous. We have

sa id , Le t ' s

s t a r t discuss ing

the

problem before we t a lk

about measures, and

they 've

accepted

tha t .

The only

problem

on the copper t a lks

has

been

the

UNCTAD Sec re t a r i a t - -

which

wi l l be

get t ing

worse

in

'77.

We

sa id ,

We

don ' t

need

the

f ac t s ;

we

know

what

the fac ts

are .

SECRETARY

KISSINGER Who runs the

UNCTAD

Secre t a r i a t ?

MR.

KATZ A man

by

the

name of C ~ and

I

th ink he ' s

been

doing some consul ta t ions around the world

on the fu ture of UNCTAD; and he ' s recognized th i s

problem

- - tha t the

Sec re t a r i a t

and

the

profess iona l

s t a f f

see themselves as an LDC Secre t a r i a t , and t hey ' r e not

objec t ive in

any

sense of

the term.

I th ink t h i s 1s one of the r ea l i n s t i t u t i ona l

problems

with

UNCTAD.

Some

people

wi l l

have

to

be -

MR.

LEWIS One of the th ings t h a t

. K Q ~ a ~

has

proposed - - tha t

may

very wel l h a p p e n - - i s t h a t t hey ' r e

going to

s e t

up t h e i r own Sec re t a r i a t sepa ra te ly . And

in

UNCTAD

he

wants to be a more

balanced

ne go t i a to r

in

Secre ta r ia t

form.

D f ~ C L A S S I F I E D

A u l h o r i t y i { \ \ ~


38/40

37

MR. LEWIS

That

may happen.

SECRE I ARY

KISSINGER

What?

MR. MAW: We w i l l

have

two

77 Secre ta r ia t s .

MR. KATZ Well , I d o n t th ink so. I think

tha t

might

be

a

good p o i n t - -

I d o n t know.

The

quest ion i s :

Who w i l l pay for

tha t? The

UN Sec re t a r i a t

has

to

pay

for

tha t

77?

Mr.

Secre tary,

the

othe r

poin t : I th ink

t ha t you

know

tha t the Pres iden t s speech to the

t ex t i l e indus t ry

today

probably

wi l l

have the reference

SECRETARY KISSINGER I was

to ld

it

would be

ta.ken

out .

MR. LORD: It s a memo

to the Pres ident saying

you oppose any reference to it, bu t Baker and Mortonand Dent

are

more

fo r a

compromise language.

SECRETARY

KISSINGER There

i s no compromise

language

poss ib le .

Once

the

Pres ident

ment ions

the

PRC - - not mat te r how

so f t ly

- - h e s got h imse l f

a

major problem.

MR. LORD: I c o u l d n t

agree

more.

I th ink

you

b e t t e r

ca l l the Pres ident .

SECRETARY KISSINGER Well , I

ca l l ed

Scowcroft

DECL SSIFIED

;\ uthority \ J ~


39/40

38

and he

t o l d me

it would be taken out .

MR

LORD:

The othe r

pos i t ions

are a lso on

the

table .

MR HABIB: This i s as o f yesterday evening

they were still having it in .

MR KATZ: Well ,

as of

about

a

quar te r to

seven

l a s t

night I

was

to ld tha t

it

went in

to

the

Pres ident with the

s ta tement t ha t Morton

and

Dent

and Baker

wanted

it in and you were opposed. And I assume

Scowcrof t was opposed.

SECRETARY

KISSINGER: Who s Baker? What s

his

s tanding

in

there?

MR KATZ: No. 2 in Commerce.

MR HABIB:

No mat ter

how

they

adjus t

the

wording,

it s still

the tac;k r

MR

LORD:

And,

as I understand,

the only

country(mentioning}the

speech

>.-,..,

-£

MR KATZ: It s the

only country where

there

i s

a

problem.

MR LORD:

Yes, but you

can

t a lk

in

genera l

terms about the

problem.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: You

cannot mention the PRC

DECL SSIFIED

A u t h o r i t y { S . \ ~ \


40/40

39

without having a major

c r i s i s

with the PRC And

it

wi l l not be done

without

an abso uproar

out

of

th i s

ld ing ,

and

nobody

i s

going to cooperate

with

t ha t

so r t

of

approach.

MR HABIB: I

th ink Morton

i s

going

to

take

the ca l l from

you.

SECRETARY

KISSINGER:

Has

he

been

i nv i t i ng

i t ?

MR HABIB:

Yes.


I ll

put

in

a

ca l l r igh t

now.

In f ac t , I have to ca l l the Pres iden t .

Larry, can

I

see you for

a

minute?

MR EAGLEBURGER: Yes, s i r .

Whereupon,

a t 8:56 a .m. , the

Secre t a ry s

Sta f f

Meeting

was concluded.)

reunión en washington 26 de marzo 1976

Documents